Getting started with Flame, Inferno

[dfusion]

Hi everyone. I'm at ends trying to figure out how people become an artist on Flame/Inferno (other than having artistic talent of course). It's not quite the same as buying a copy of Maya or After Effects, some training videos or a book, and learning the software. Unless you work in a facility where the discreet equipment exists and get a lucky break to use it, what's the alternative?

Oregon 3D used to provide training for Inferno but I do not see it listed anymore. Of course desktop compositing (AE, Shake, Digital Fusion) is popular, but I don't think it's at the same level as Flame or Inferno.

There is a company "A52" that is a boutique in L.A. that does some amazing work for television (Nike, Cadillac, Nissan, Adidas), and THAT is exactly the work I'd love to be involved with. It's like a hybrid of video edit meets seamless, sultry effects that tell a nice 20 second story. This appeals to me much more than the cumbersome desktop compositing work normally associated with PC based apps..

Sorry if I sound harsh about desktop apps, I have nothing against them. But after meeting so many people 'in the industry' in L.A. I see the line drawn between "real-time discreet/quantel/etc artist" who work the high end stuff, vs. the kids becoming a slave to the grind using the more common desktop apps.. Not sure if one direction offers more than the other, but I get the impression the high-end artists have more established careers and tend to be a bit more mature.

Can anyone shed some light?

Thanks,
Mark

[netviper]

You can purchase flame training dvd's from

http://www.cmistudios.com

[aydinu]

I have the same problem. Those DVD's are great but you still need footage to practice and ofcourse the appplication (and I just don't have that kind of money lying around here:D ).

I'm also looking for a trainingcenter that offers flame/inferno certified courses

Thanks

Aydin

[zolo]

I think most would agree that there's no "fast track" to becoming a flame/inferno artist. I would venture a guess that very few people have started their careers on flame or inferno. I've often read from flame artists that they began as a tape operator in a post house and managed to get in time on a flame during off hours, waiting for the day that the flame artist called in sick so that they could pick up the slack.

At the very least, I think a solid understanding of desktop compositing and editing apps, in addition to general design skills, will go a long way toward helping you reach your goals. While flame/inferno are great tools, they're only effective in the hands of a talented artist. It's just as important to have good design sense as it is to know what buttons to push. In the end, a client doesn't know just by looking at a reel if the job was done in flame or with desktop apps. What flame offers is realtime interactivity, the ability to do work with a client sitting over your shoulder, breathing down your neck and watching the clock tick by at $600/hr. Being a flame/inferno artist may seem glamorous, but there's a certain amount of stress that goes with the territory. Also remember that a lot of excellent work has also been done on desktop apps, and that it's the artist and not the tools that makes the difference in the end.

Keep that in mind when looking into flame/inferno training. Don't expect to walk into a job as a flame artist just because you spent $5000 on training courses. There's a certain amount of luck, paying your dues, and being in the right place at the right time that goes into getting a seat in the big chair.

-zolo

[tom]

i totally agree with zolo. so your way should be getting an intership at a post house with discreet stuff and stop sleeping for the next years... that´s more or less exactly what it takes. try to find a posthouse with an excelent reel because: the more complicated jobs they handle - the more you learn. it doesn´t help sitting alone in front of a flame - you need to see artists solving the complicated stuff and to understand what they do you need to have an already good knowledge of FFI. It is kind of running around in circles.

i think it takes about a year to have the chance for client work (and not just helping the other artists by doing rotoscoping and so on). and even then it is still hard because they pay megabucks and so they want you to be the best, fastest and most creative artist. and: you are still far away from being really good, fast and selfconfident.

but: it is a lot of fun and i really like it

and by the way: the stuff a52 creates is really great. my compliments to them

tom
second unit services
munich / germany

www.secondunit.com

[imported_mseymour7]

It is hard to learn and very hard to find good training.
A couple of points of interest.
fxguide is moving into offering training, we are not ready to release the details yet, but it will be widely available. And we aim to cover both the USA and worldwide, for example, next week I will be giving 3 days of flame training in Shanghai, China, in much the same style as the fxguide live shows we do each year in Las Vegas, but more entry level, and John is in Europe for IBC.
We will also be releasing information very soon about our DVDs from the first two fxguide live shows which have hours of senior level compositing training.

Mike
co-founder

[peteSid]

Mark,

I can totally relate with your position. Here's what I did...

I was working in news as a broadcast designer, tucked away from any exposure to artists doing this kind of work. So I was looking into grad school (not a route for everyone, but it worked for me), and I found that CADA at NYU had a Flint lab. So I went there and when I got into my flint class, I spent hours behind the box to impress my professor.

It is important to really work hard, and impress the people who work in the industry.

So I got a summer intership at my professors shop and was shortly after hired onto night crew. I have been here over a year now, still on nights, and I can say that what the other posters are saying is true.

In the land of Discreet compositing, there is no quick way to the top. It takes alot of hard work and alot of time... I'm certainly not there yet!

But I would agree. Get any intership you can, as long as the house has the kind of work that you want to do. And then, as I was told, make yourself so valuable in the company that they have to hire you.

It should also be noted that you should plan on being poor for the next couple of years. Remeber that there are alot of people who want to get on an inferno, so for newbies, there is very little salery.

-Pete

[amilkis]

I would like to second just about everything that was said here.

I took a job as an assistant engineer just so I could get time on a flame. And, as Pete's flint instructor (Pete, is that you?):lol: I can tell you that over the years, I have hired several of my students who have shown promise.

-Andy

[Anise]

Hi... (waves)
Well, here's what I'm doing. I have a fair amount of experience on many other desktop apps (done quite a bit of editing too) and I know my way around a tape room. At my internship, I've just gotten a chance to learn flame 8 by staying after hours. So I'm going to do that. :D The discreet guy is pretty helpful, although he's usually busy, so what I'll do is come in a few nights a week and maybe ask him specific questions about certain things the next day. (Are there ANY other books besides the manuals? Anyway, those are what I'm going to use.) I know combustion fairly well, so at least the interface looks a teensy bit familiar. Sound good?

And as far as folks in Nashville that know how to use this... well, there's this guy, and probably one other at CMT. That's about it.

Striking boldly forth to conquer new worlds,
Anise

[rego]

Inferno and flame are for artists who have graduated from using the desk top apps like combustion and shake and know how to achieve any particular effect in the shortest time with maximum realism(and have experience of dealing with clients online without losing it). Once you have worked on desktop apps for two or three years doing actual production jobs you will automatically get a feel for this. Then once you watch some one work on it for a few days you will pick it up . but the point is to get acess to the machine, which i agree with the other guys is a major prob. but believe me it may be called the 'big guns' in the industry but there are a lot of features in shake and combustion which are far superior. for example the paint tools in combustion are far more superior than FFI. Best way is to get yourself hired into a post house with FFI even as a beginer working on desktop apps and work your way up. Paying big $$$ for training for three days or a week does really not help, even if you have the money to spare. It does not get you a job as an inferno artist instantly.

[Anise]

From what I've seen, I agree with the last poster. You HAVE to have experience with desktop apps first. Here's a good example of why. At the post house where I'm interning, every single Avid and FCP editor has been specifically, individually offered the chance to learn Flame and Smoke. They've all declined. I really think they're just too intimidated by it, and a big reason is that they've hardly used Combustion, After Effects, etc.

[eltopo]

From what I've seen, I agree with the last poster. You HAVE to have experience with desktop apps first. Here's a good example of why. At the post house where I'm interning, every single Avid and FCP editor has been specifically, individually offered the chance to learn Flame and Smoke. They've all declined. I really think they're just too intimidated by it, and a big reason is that they've hardly used Combustion, After Effects, etc.

I don't think FFi machines are intimidating I think once you work on a desktop machine, a Discreet machine becomes a frustrating experience particularly from it's interface limitations.

To the question, I agree you should get an internship in a place where they use FFI. If you can't and you have to do it by yourself, learn Combustion. It is the closest thing. However I should point out that perhaps you will be better off if you concentrate on becoming a good compositor with whatever software you have (I recommend After Effects). If you are good at t, it will be easier to get hired and get trained to use a FFI machine.

[majik]

The main thing is to forget what piece of kit you're using and as the boys said earlier, concentrate on being a good compositor. I was lucky when i finished college and jumped straight into a flame assistant position. i spent two years just conforming, archiving and dustbusting. But i needed the time, I came from a film production background and all I knew were avids. I'm five years at it now and am only getting into the big client heavy work, plus me first big 2k job is around the corner.

in some respects I wish I had the oppurtunity to work on just being a good compositor with a desktop app. I think people who train on combustion, shake of AE have a a more flexible mindset and can adapt to different software. At our house we can convince clients that if they ain't got the money to spend and have more time, then use AE, of which we have 8 seats. We have done a lot of our recent big jobs exclusively on AE, so get good on AE or combustion you might actually get to work on the Ford's or the Coca-cola's!

[nxfxdotcom]

Hello,

very interesting comments, i would love to work again on Flame(I had some nights with it), what software should i specialize in , so that i can what again with a large studio?)

Shake?
After Effecs?
Combustion?


Thx

[nxfxdotcom]

nobody an idea?

[mdoane]

Hello,

very interesting comments, i would love to work again on Flame(I had some nights with it), what software should i specialize in , so that i can what again with a large studio?)

Shake?
After Effecs?
Combustion?


Thx

It all depends on what you want to do. If you want to get into compositing I would suggest Shake or Combustion. If you want to do motion graphics you should get AE. But, if you just want to get familiar w/ Flame you should get Combustion. They are somewhat similar.

Try to approach it differently. You should be thinking of what kind of imagery you want to create, and then find the best tool for that. Good Luck.

md

[imported_mseymour7]

My recommendation for anyone wanting to learn Flame - or rather learn some other Aps that would help with learning flame would be

1. Combustion - (as many menus are similar)

2. Photoshop - (this can really help with getting a position and doing great work)

3. Shake - (for film work) Outstanding - professional - well written

4. Digital Fusion (for CGI pipelines) - it includes great improvements in V 5.0

5. AE ( for Motion graphics) - it is great and there are loads of plugins

6. Nuke (i guess this may be as hard as find a flame to practice on - but Nuke is an excellent tool - very powerful - 3D compositing Environment - OpenEXR pipeline - so I couldn't write a list without including it!)

[RyanRicochet]

Hello all,
I myself am interested in working on a flame/inferno at some point in the future, but I'm not sure the best way for me to do so. I have done the internship thing and stayed late every night and now I work on Avid DS Nitris, which I love and is still quite powerfull. I have been in the chair for about a year now working with clients in the room (doing effects and onlines) and am well aware the pressures associated with that. I still have a lot to learn as I am still very young, but I work with an amazing DS artist and am learning a ton a neat techniques. (We do a lot of Commercial work) So when I am ready and comfortable enough with my own skills and knowledge to move on, how tough is it to get into a place that runs Discreet (Autodesk). I will already know the techniques, I'll just have to find the right buttons and figure out the workflow, which at first would make me quite slow, which is a downside. I have a little knowledge of Combustion and will explore much deeper as time goes, but will that be enough.

Just looking for some input.
Thanks Everyone.
Ryan

[patdawg]

I have a little knowledge of Combustion and will explore much deeper as time goes, but will that be enough.

Ryan

As someone who uses combustion, smoke, and flame quite a bit I can tell you that combustion will not help you a great deal. It was written by completely different people, and has a very different style of workflow. Your best bet is to get a job at a place that uses alot of discreet stuff, and maybe take some training courses.

[imported_mseymour7]

I know what your saying but often a way to learn flame is to offside someone senior - and that can often mean doing roto etc -

In combustion the roto tools are similar, the CC similar, the Diamond keyer is the CW, - plus they both have 3D compositing environments ... so i think there are benefits in learning Combustion.

But your right there is no action or batch per say and no desktop reel style GUI.

It is also the case that there are jobs to be had as a freelance combustion operator in many larger markets - or so i have been told.

Mike

[uwe_wiesemann]

Hi,
If I were you, I'd learn as many as possible.
Combustion comes very close to Flame in terms of compatibility, the keyer and colorcorrection are the same. Also transform is almost like the axis in Flame, althogh not exactly as flexible...
AfterEffects is kind of a standard to know these days and it is VERY powerful. Shake is somewhat special, but extremly flexible and powerful as a compositing-package.

regards

Uwe Wiesemann

>Hello,

>very interesting comments, i would love to work again on Flame(I had some nights >with it), what software should i specialize in , so that i can what again with a large >studio?)

>Shake?
>After Effecs?
>Combustion?

[rego]

Hi
I think Shake and Combustion are good to start with before Inferno/Flame.
Shake is more closer to inferno way of working. but combustion also has a similar interface and many similar tools. I was extremely good at combustion when i got onto the inferno but had to struggle a lot to understand its interface and took me about six months to get productive. But once you get there its a lot of fun and worth the struggle.Hope this helps...

[renderizer]

Yes, this looks indeed like a very interesting thread.

It's especially interesting to see how people managed to sneak into their positions.

I am doing work with Combustion, simply because it's affordable, versatile - and also because I LOVE the interface. I have briefly looked into AE once or twice, but here happened exactly the opposite: while I love to handle Photoshop, the AE interface made me run for cover. Way too many floating windows on the lose. Hardhat area...

I'd love to get my hands on Shake, but I can't afford to just go out and buy a Mac system out of the blue. The Linux version is just too expensive. Someone I know in berlin offered me to sell me his old Windoze version of Shake (2.4 or 2.5, can't remember) for around $1000. I was very tempted, but eventually turned down the offer, as Shake on Windows is a deliberately dead horse, so to speak (and it's not just smelling funny).

Things are similiar with DF or Nuke (way to pricey for me).

If you are still learning - and usually on your own (like I do) - you most likely won't have that much access to trainloads full of hi-end compositing apps, and hence it's difficult to gain the experience that's necessary to qualify you for even the most basic internship position. And I'm not going to rant about having the chance to just even take a look at some FFI from a close distance.

Well...poco-a-poco (step by step, little by little)...the day will come! :wink: