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Hi All,
I am very interested in possibly investing in a flame* suite. What type of equipment is needed besides the software? Computer, Hard Drives, OS, etc… Any least expensive configurations or alternatives? Cheers, for the info.
A.
Ajax wrote:Hi All,I am very interested in possibly investing in a flame* suite. What type of equipment is needed besides the software? Computer, Hard Drives, OS, etc… Any least expensive configurations or alternatives? Cheers, for the info.
A.
Well, for starters you’ll need about a quarter of a million dollars, which is what a new flame sells for. Flame isn’t just software, it’s a complete integrated system of hardware and software that are optimized for each other.
Currently, flame is based around SGI workstations, which run SGI’s IRIX operating system, a UNIX variant. You can’t run flame on a PC or a Mac.
What do you want to do? What types of projects will you be working on? What kind of experience do you have? How much money do you have to invest? These are all pertinent questions you’ll have to answer before we can make any useful suggestions to you.
Help us help you.
-zolo
Ajax wrote:I am trying to do the research for this so I can sell the idea of possibly investing in a flame, or flint. and yes I understand it doesn’t work on a mac & PC 🙂The last version they had before I left was version 7, and I know there are a hell of a bunch of new features from that time! I’m just trying to investigate the possibilty of our company seriously looking into this.
Back to my question:
What type of equipment is needed besides the software? Computer, Hard Drives, OS, etc… Any least expensive configurations or alternatives?
A.
Sorry if I was dismissive, these forums get a lot of clueless newbie posts regarding running flame on PCs and such.
I guess it depends on if you want to go with old or new hardware, and what you envision as being the maximum resolution you’ll be working with. Flint is now based on a Linux platform (IBM Intellistation), but it doesn’t do HD. I’m not sure of current “flinux” pricing, however. I remember discreet offering a really attractive deal recently for a combined flint/smoke Linux bundle.
If you want to “roll your own,” as far as hardware goes, you’ll have to make sure that discreet will support the configuration you put together. Obviously they would prefer that you get the whole integrated system from them, but they will sell just the software and support if you already have capable hardware.
Recommendadtions for a host computer for flame: Dual CPU Octane2 (R12K 400MHz or R14K 600MHz) or quad CPU Tezro (R16K 700MHz or higher) with 2GB RAM or more, IRIX 6.5.27. For flint, a dual CPU Octane2. Don’t bother with Octane or O2, they’re way too old at this point. Octane2 needs the DM2 video option, Tezro needs DM3. DM2 and DM3 Each include a video breakout box that supports SD and HD via SDI. There is also a DM5 option which outputs the full discreet desktop and UI to a video monitor. If you need to capture from or output to analog formats, you’ll need additional conversion hardware. The host system should have at least two channels of fibre channel IO.
It used to be that you had to use discreet stone storage arrays, which are quite pricey. However, the latest versions of discreet’s systems can be used with third-party storage if you pay a license fee. Don’t go with anything less than a fibre channel disk array–you’ll definitely benefit from the fastest storage you can afford. Storage speed is more important than overall storage space, because you probably won’t be working on long-form material.
Pricewise, the entry point for hardware would be a used dual CPU Octane2 V12 with DM2 option. You should be able to get a dual 400MHz Octane2 V12 and dual port fibre channel XIO module for under $3K. SGI sells remanufactured DM2s for about $10K.
Storage prices are anyone’s guess. Look for fibre channel RAIDs on eBay for the lowest prices–lots of enterprise organizations are unloading their first generation fibre channel storage for a fraction of the original value. If you won’t be doing HD, then you can get by with an array on a single fibre channel connection. For HD, you’ll need two fibre connections going to two arrays (or at least a fast array with a split backplane) and an aggregate disk bandwidth of over 180MB/sec.
As far as software and support pricing goes, you’ll have to talk to discreet about that! 😉
You should definitely wait to see what announcements discreet makes at NAB , which is coming up soon. They may announce completely new products or platforms, so do your research and sit tight.
-zolo
thanks zolo…that was good info there.
b
Ajax wrote:“It used to be that you had to use discreet stone storage arrays, which are quite pricey. However, the latest versions of discreet’s systems can be used with third-party storage if you pay a license fee. Don’t go with anything less than a fibre channel disk array–you’ll definitely benefit from the fastest storage you can afford.”Hi Zolo,
Can you point me in the right direction as far as Stone drives are concerned? Cheers,
A.
You can only get stone arrays from discreet, unless you happen to be very lucky and find one used somewhere, like on eBay. Stones use hard drives with special serials in their firmware, so you can’t just buy an old stone and put new drives in it. Discreet has made it very difficult to get around paying them for the privilege of using their filesystem. Newer versions of their software do allow third party storage if a license is purchased.
There’s nothing magic about the actual hardware that discreet uses for storage. Until recently, stones were simply fibre channel JBODs with software RAID 3. They now offer a hardware RAID 5 option as well. What sets stones apart is discreet’s filesystem. Discreet’s proprietary filesystem allows higher performance than SGI’s native xfs. As stated on discreet’s website, the stone filesystem “offers superior flexibility, with soft partitioning to enable the management of multiple-resolution projects without the intricacies involved in applying hard partitions of media.” In other words, without the discreet filesystem, an array has to be set up with separate static partitions for each different resolution used (NTSC, HD, 2K, etc.).
Of course, it’s all relative to your needs. If you’re only doing SD, then soft partitioning isn’t really that valuable to you. I’m not sure, but I suspect that the performance difference between a stone and a striped xlv array might be less pronounced if you’re working with NTSC only.
Hope this helps.
-zolo
By the way, if you’re trying to build a case for flame at your new employer, keep in mind what post houses bill for a flame session. $600 an hour or more is the going rate, so if you can keep a flame suite busy, it will pay for itself very quickly. Ask around at other flame facilities for rates, and include that with your proposal.
If you’re not going to be doing any HD or 2K, flint is an attractive option. If you can get a few seats of combustion along with a flint or a flame, you’ll have the potential for a nicely integrated workflow between offline and online sessions, and you’ll maximize your investment.
Do I sound like a discreet commercial or what?
😉
-zolo
Ajax wrote:We have combustion for the mac, but it seems very slow compared to the PC.It is. 🙁
Ajax wrote:Tryng to figure out a way to speed up its production on the mac because we are a mac based company. Any suggestions?A.
My suggestion is: Don’t be a “Mac-based company.” Successful postproduction companies don’t base their business on a single platform. I guarantee you if you walk into ILM or Digital Domain, you’ll see PCs (Linux and Windows), Macs, SGIs, and maybe more, all working together in a heterogeneous environment.
Trust me on this. I own a dual 2GHz G5, and it’s a great machine, but combustion sucks on it compared to on a Windows PC. I don’t own a PC, but I’m seriously considering buying one to use as a combustion workstation because I love combustion. Choose your platform based on your tools, not the other way around. After all, the client has no idea what platform something was created on just by looking at it! Hardware comes and goes, but a good software package (with periodical upgrades) should last through several generations of hardware.
If you want to be competitive and get more work, become platform-agnostic. Use the right tools for the job, whatever they may be. Nobody likes Windows, but in a production environment with good quality hardware, it’s really not that big of a big deal. Use common sense–keep production machines off of the Internet, or at least behind a firewall, don’t receive email on them, etc. You spend 99% of your time in an application, not dealing with the intricacies of the OS. Spend more time mastering your applications and less time worrying about the logo on the front of the box it runs on.
I know, it’s easy to have that attitude when you don’t have a small company with rooms full of legacy hardware, but try to foster openmindedness when it comes to hardware upgrades. In my opinion, a business trying to be an all-Mac postproduction facility is deliberately depriving itself of a wide range of powerful and economical tools. Why limit yourself?
I’d be interested to hear more about this facility–its history, the type of clients, the type of work, the type of formats handled, the hardware and software, etc.
Good luck!
-zolo
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